Thursday, 20 October 2011

Tory Euroscepticism

There are a number of people, possibly even a majority of readers whose position is that Tory Euroscepticism is an Oxymoron, as the Tories are not promising immediate British withdrawal from the EU project. These people should indeed vote UKIP, and accept the consequences for the UK of more frequent Labour governments. Enjoy paying that lovely tax, UKIPERS, you voted for it.

If you believe the British relationship with Europe to be the sine qua non of political issues right now: an issue so pressing that, despite the labyrinthine complexity of disentangling the UK from the EU, it needs to be dealt with during the biggest financial crisis in nearly a century, while British forces are engaged in two (OK, one and a half) hot wars, then by all means flounce off to UKIP. The Tory party is better off without monomaniacs.

UKIP's 'Brains trust' hard at work

If you believe that leaving the EU would be without cost, or being in the EU is without benefit, then you're quite mad. So off you go to UKIP, where you will be welcome. The fact is, I, like most Conservatives would vote for substantial renegotiation and repatriation of powers, or for withdrawal, were a referendum granted. It won't be, not in this parliament for a great many good reasons. Clearing up the Augean stables after Labour's 13-year economic scat-party is the first priority. Education & NHS reforms are probably second.

I like most of the country, don't put British membership of the European union that high on my list of priorities, either way. The main reason for opposing an EU referendum NOW! is that Britain would (yes, it would) vote to stay in, ending the issue, probably for my life-time. Let Europe tear itself apart over the costs of monetary union, THEN secure a vote we Eurosceptics might win. I am a Eurosceptic, but I can wait.



22 comments:

Anonymous said...

Random question -

I Need a something ("Retail" level ofc.) that'll let me buy options, specifically put options on equities globally. I know spread-betting and CFD are all the rage, but your risk is open-ended there. At least with options the worst that hapens is you lose the money you put in as they expire... You have any idea or know anyone who does? Irish offerings seem to be non-existant, and it's hard to find good info even for UK.

Karl.

Jackart said...

Karl, drop me an e-mail (link to the right), and I should be able to help you. All the best.

Weekend Yachtsman said...

Hmm, I don't buy the "lots more Labour governments" line that you Tories are always pushing; it doesn't frighten me any more, because the Scots are about to secede, and without them there will be NO more Labour governments in Britain. None.

As for higher taxes, have your lot lowered them? No. Are they going to, ever? No. So that's that argument out of the way as well.

There remains the suggestion that we should all vote for something we don't agree with because otherwise Call-me-Dave might lose. Sorry, is this supposed to be a serious argument?

Hopeless or not, I want out of the EU so I am going to vote for the people who promise that. If that means your party loses, I should care because?

As for renegotiation and repatriation of powers, stop taling nonsens and come back when you are sober; those things are not on offer and never will be, as I suspect you know quite well.

Jackart said...

The point is I DON'T CARE ALL THAT MUCH ABOUT EUROPE. It's a non issue as far as the electorate are concerned. The main reason to support the Tories: Free schools. Get that through and widespread, the country will be vastly better educated in 25 years. That's what REALLY matters.

As for your point about taxes, "my lot" can't lower them. Cut deficit THEN cut taxes. Otherwise you're agreeing with Ed Balls.

Anonymous said...

Jackart,


I normally appreciate your moderation, but at the moment you simply sound like a Tory Shill.

What happends if the EU pass the Tobin Tax? How do we fix the economy if the EU keeps loading it up with regulations like the Agency Workers directive?

And as for the Tories - have they actually tried being Tory? They're getting battered by the Beeb for cust - yet they haven't cut anything yet, just reduced the speed of increase. Bonfire of the quangoes - you're having a laugh.

I would agree with you if the Tories actually behaved like Tories but the policies being implemented are a gnat's hair away from Labour and say to me that there's the political class implementing their agenda, and then there's the rest of us. You said it yourself, we're in the middle of a gargantuan financial crisis, and Cameron's working on Internet Porn filters (only 20 years too late and utterly technically unachievable)

Fuck it.. I'm going to give UKIP a chance, becuase Cameron's lot are simply not Tories to my understanding.

Antisthenes said...

I do not altogether disagree with you some of the points you make are quite valid. However you do not enunciate what the benefits are of being a member of the EU I suggest it is because you would be hard pressed to do so. You mention the economic mess the UK is in mostly I agree from 13 years of Labour government in which they accelerated and exacerbated the problem but not entirety. Decades of social democratic policies putting social projects ahead of economic reality by both right and left mostly the left and the EU, with their continual interference and imposition of draconian regulations have put in place an environment that was bound to lead a crisis of seismic proportions. The Conservatives are attempting to repair the damage but are not able to as they are being denied the implementation of the policies needed to do so. External and internal forces are at work that are and will continue to thwart attempts to allow the radical measures needed to stave off the total economic and social collapse of the UK and all western nations. One of the main external forces working against UK recovery is the EU the interference and draconian regulations they have imposed on the UK have to be rolled back and that cannot come about whilst the UK remains a member. How leaving the EU or changing it to every ones mutual benefit looks to being an impossibility. UKIP have the ambition and when their other policies are inspected show also that they those policies would halt the UK's decline and start the process of social and economic revival. However this may all be academic as the UKIP are not in government and the present crisis is not going to be effectively dealt with so soon the west is going to be a very different place. One in which austerity, stagflation and third world public services will be the norm. A place where if the EU exists at all it will not be the arrogant undemocratic institution that it is now.

Jackart said...

Tobin tax WILL be vetoed. Simple. It will not apply to London, no British Government would wear it.

As for reducing the speed of the increase. The ship of state cannot be turned in a hurry. The deficit is flat, even as the Global recovery stalls. That's probably a result.

Benefits of EU membership: Free movement of goods and people, single market etc. Being part of a trade-block for negotiations.

Whether this is worth the cost in fees and soverignty, is moot. I think not, but only just. I'd go for renegotiation, rather than withdrawal.

Anonymous said...

@Weekend Yachtsman:

With regard to your point about not caring whether Labour or Tories get in as the Tories never lowered taxes - This is true.

But as sure as shit stinks if Labour get in they WILL raise them.

That is one of the reasons why I left the Septic Isle. I only wish I'd left sooner.

Peter Whale said...

Don't fret yourself, cast iron dave,(I can't use capitals for such a little boy) is going to use a three line whip against his cast iron promise. Such integrity. Abuse away.

Jackart said...

Anyone who uses that "cast iron" phrase either doesn't know that it was made in the context of an imminent election in 2009, PRE RATIFICATION, in which case you're ignorant.

Either that, or you're dishonest and monomaniacal about Europe.

Though I just find most people who use the phrase "cast Iron Dave" to be wankers and the Tory party is better off without them. People like you render parties unelectable.

Have I made myself clear?

THE ELECTORATE COULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT EUROPE. IF CAMERON HAS A REFERENDUM, HE WILL SPLIT THE COALITION, REMIND THE ELECTORATE OF TORY "SPLITS ON EUROPE" AND YOU RISK HAVING MILIBAND MINOR AS PM.

If you were "cast iron dave" would you offer a referendum? If so, that's why you're not PM. Or even and MP.

botzarelli said...

Quite right. EU membership is an abstract and academic one unless accompanied by a clear and coherent plan setting out how it would make things better in the areas that people care about. If that vision for the future was strong enough it would not need a referendum - in fact, if the need for exit was so obviously pressing in the national interest why would any sane political party jeopardise it by introducing the delay and uncertainty of a referendum?

The only time that leaving was seriously proposed by one of the major parties was in Labour's 1983 manifesto. It didn't appeal to the electorate but was far more principled than either the UKIP or Tory Eurosceptic positions - the protection of British industry and jobs they proposed could only have been done by a non-EEC Britain. A similar agenda today might well prove rather more popular. Arguments about sovereignty, democratic accountability or negative criticisms of EU legislative over-reaching just aren't in the same league when it comes to making a compelling case.

http://botzarelli.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/the-hokey-eu-referendum/

Tony Harrison said...

Whether you consider yourself a Tory, a libertarian, a classic liberal or whatever, this rant crosses any boundary (decency, common sense...) you care to name. Goebbels might have been amused by your depiction of UKIP supporters as Untermensch, an illustration so grossly silly as to intrigue rather than offend – intrigue, that is, in the sense of make one reflect upon your mental state.
I don't know if your opening para (things go downhill from there) is disingenuous or merely daft. Get this: the Tory Party is not Eurosceptic by any measure, let alone that of wishing to quit the EU. Since (apparently) you left school only a couple of years ago this might seem surprising – or else you're just too lazy/sloppy to check the basics – but some of us have observed for decades the weird, distressing, contradictory sight of the Tory Party's schizoid attitude to the EU. Chickens with two heads ain't in it: your leaders prevaricate, shriek with fake outrage, throw out bogus Eurosceptic PR ejaculations while signing up to the latest EU Blitzkrieg upon our sovereignty, tell lies, etc, not just to the PBI/working stiffs but to their own bleedin' supporters! Are they deluded twats – or utterly cynical self-seeking traitors?
Before you decide again to emulate the style of The Guardian when it discusses the BNP, in blogging about UKIP, just lay off the pills & booze, take a deep breath, and take a long hard look at the reality of the Tory Party. It's pretty sickening – which is why many of us now vote UKIP. Political principle remains important to some, absurdly old fashioned though it might seem to the young and spotty.

Peter Whale said...

Did you conveniently forget that all three parties put a referendum in their lying manifestos. He who lies last, the cast iron boy, gets remembered for it.Carry on with the tribal tripe.

Jackart said...

Did you not notice the main reason I oppose a referendum now? Did you read to the bottom of the post? I THINK Britian, right now, would vote to stay in. That would be it, over, kaput, never get another say, ever, finished. Let Europe blow itself up, THEN have a referendum.

However, instead of reading the post, I've been compared to Goebells. Bonza! UKIPERs are stupid monomaniacs. QED.

Tony Harrison said...

I compared you to Goebbels (nb spelling...) because of your infantile, offensive illustration, and your gross sub-Steve-Bell caricature of UKIP supporters' beliefs.
Your arguments - if such they be - about the tactical wisdom of in/out referendums are neither here nor there, given your strangely rose-tinted view of Tory Euroscepticism. You really are being teribly predictable and old fashioned: it's such a cliché for diehard Tory tribalists to accuse UKIP supporters of being "monomaniacs" or "single issue backwoodsmen" (whatever...) simply because they take the logical view that our continued existence as a fully independent nation is somewhat more important than anything else.

Jackart said...

And I don't think "our continued existence as a soverign nation" is threatened by the EU. We can, at any time, simply leave. Who, pray owns the tanks to stop us?

The idea that the EU is the most pressing issue in British politics is ridiculous and the electorate sees it.

I don't like the EU, and wish we'd never joined. But we are where we are. Now is NOT the time to do something about it.

Jackart said...

To be clear, I won't be pissed off if a Referendum happens, but I know it won't.

The promised referendum was on the lisbon treaty. There's no point in having one on that because it's done. It would be an in/out, which was not in ANY parties manifesto, except UKIP, who don't count, because they're monomanaical nutters.

Tony Harrison said...

Well, your repeated catcalls such as "monomaniacal nutters" and "stupid monomaniacs" are not as worrying as your equivocal - to put it mildly - view of the EU, but they're sufficient indication that it's pointless to continue this fascinating conversation. It really isn't that long since you left the school playground, is it...

Devil's Kitchen said...

"Clearing up the Augean stables after Labour's 13-year economic scat-party is the first priority..."

The EU puts that at risk. No, wait—it more than does that.

Our contributions to the bail-outs have already wiped out all the savings that the Coalition projected to make this year—and they haven't even made those anyway.

DK

Devil's Kitchen said...

"There's no point in having one on that because it's done. It would be an in/out, which was not in ANY parties manifesto..."

Actually, yes, it was.

DK

Weekend Yachtsman said...

"Tobin tax WILL be vetoed"

Uh, no.

The "colleagues" will find a way to impose it, which won't be susceptible to our veto.

They are already saying how they'll make it a "Value Added Tax" that can be passed by QMV. If that doesn't work, no doubt they'll bring it in as a Health and Safety measure. If not that, something will work.

In any case, do you actually believe that Cast-Iron Dave would, in the end, when the chips are down, veto anything that some from his precious EU?

If you do, I have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

Jackart said...

Fucking hell, WY. You're using that fucking stupid "cast iron dave" formulation.

Stupid stupid stupid.

There was an error in this gadget